A UN Expert on the Institution’s Successes, Failures, and Continued Relevance
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Minh-Thu Pham
September 21, 2023
Q&A
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Minh-Thu Pham recently joined the Carnegie Endowment as a nonresident scholar.
What was it like to work at the UN, based on your years in the Secretariat?
It was both inspiring and humbling—inspiring because you get to help the community of 193 nations try to uphold the values they agreed to, and humbling because you (or at least your boss, the Secretary-General) have no power and very little influence. Everything you do is shaped by dynamics among member states, and the success of your efforts ultimately depends on whether they agree with one another or not. But when member states see it’s in their interest to cooperate, it can be pretty cool.
Minh-Thu Pham
More >
@M2Pham
Still, my experience was somewhat unique. I arrived at the Executive Office of the Secretary-General in January 2005, during a period of deep crisis. Under questioning from the press, then secretary-general Kofi Annan said the Iraq war was not in accordance with the UN Charter and therefore illegal. Typically tensions arise at the UN as a result of disagreement among states, but here it was between the UN’s most powerful member state (the United States) and its top official who works at the behest of its members.
That led to several U.S. congressional investigations into the UN, threats to withhold UN funding, and an independent inquiry , among other things. I was charged with staffing the UN’s response. That included several reforms, and in the end, we got agreement on the principle of Responsibility to Protect , important institutional changes on human rights and peace-building, and measures to improve management and operations.
How relevant is the UN today, nearly eight decades after it was created?
The UN’s relevance has been a question almost since its founding, but major powers ultimately decide that it’s to their benefit to try to work with it. Coordinating policy through an institution with global reach can be more efficient than working bilaterally.
That said, right now trust between governments seems to be reaching a breaking point, and the legitimacy of states such as the United States that helped establish the world order is being seriously questioned. This is happening at just the moment when global cooperation is needed the most.
Alternative clubs and pop-up alliances, while useful for certain purposes, also reflect the power transition we’re in. The expansion of the BRICS can bring those countries greater leverage at the UN, which is the only forum where the rest of the developing world is represented alongside the most powerful. At least in the medium term, I think governments will still go to the UN. If BRICS+ and others want to lead or influence the so-called Global South , they need to go where those countries are, and that’s the UN.
What explains the UN’s failures? Is it capable of reform, at least at the margins?
The UN has contributed to dramatic failures—often as a result of indecision, either when member states can’t agree, as in the war in Syria; when their agreement falls far short of what’s needed, as in Bosnia or Rwanda; or when they selectively apply, or don’t apply, international norms to suit their interests, as in Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
Reform can mean different things—from ongoing debate about Security Council expansion to significant but less glamorous institutional changes to help the UN better deliver. Getting countries to agree on major changes depends on trust between member states and on whether there’s a broad coalition of committed states, backed by a solid political strategy and pressure from outside.
Ultimately, reform is about changing how the UN works in order to improve it.
What’s one aspect of the UN that’s flown under the radar that you wish more people knew about?
I thought the relatively open process of creating the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) was itself a reform of UN decisionmaking and a story worth understanding. (That may be self-serving, since I was deeply involved.)
But what happened wasn’t a rule change but rather a practice change. In the process of deciding on the goals, member states took into account ideas and evidence from governments (including local and regional bodies), UN agencies and programs, non-UN organizations, and new stakeholders that all helped to popularize the goals and whose expertise we need to implement them. It was “networked multilateralism” in practice, and I don’t think UN decisionmaking can go back to being closed to the people most affected.
Yes, we’re off-track for achieving the goals —which were always ambitious—and the coronavirus pandemic set us further back. We’ll need the solidarity demonstrated in 2015—in the SDGs, the Paris climate agreement, and the financing for development agenda—and more to get us closer.
What do you make of the often ambivalent relationship between the UN and the United States?
It’s a tension built into the UN’s fabric. The United States helped create the UN and the existing world order, including the norms and principles that shape state behavior and the institutions that support them. Washington abides by those norms, at least most of the time, because it’s in its interest for others to see that it does and others should as well. Ultimately, the United States goes to the UN if doing so will accomplish its objectives. However, it should keep in mind that when it doesn’t go to the UN, there’s a trade-off. If the United States doesn’t go when it should, or doesn’t uphold its end of the bargain, it erodes its legitimacy as the underwriter of the global order. That’s one reason for the crisis we’re in.
What will be your focus at Carnegie?
I’m interested in how international organizations like the UN can better deliver, especially in response to profound change and compounding crises. How should these institutions adapt? The people and countries most impacted by the crisis have had very little say in what happens to them, but they will find ways to be heard. How will that play out, especially as authoritarianism is taking hold in many parts of the world, and people don’t trust their own governments to represent them or deliver for them?
Read more of Carnegie’s UNGA coverage:
The Massive Challenge Facing Leaders at the SDG Summit
Five Signs of Life for Global Cooperation
Neither Biden nor Netanyahu Could Afford a Bad Meeting
Unpacking Biden’s Remarks (video)
End of document
Carnegie does not take institutional positions on public policy issues; the views represented herein are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of Carnegie, its staff, or its trustees.
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About Who We Are Board of Trustees Senior Leadership Our Story Staff Employment Diversity and Inclusion Junior Fellows Program Annual Report. Contact For Research For Government For Media Join Our Email List Follow Us Twitter Facebook YouTube LinkedIn Instagram. Support. Donate. Search Search In: Just Washington All Centers Search function justThisSite() { document.getElementById("solrSearchBasic").action = '/search/' document.getElementById("solrSearchBasic").center.value = ""; } function allCenters() { document.getElementById("solrSearchBasic").action = 'https://carnegieendowment.org/search/' document.getElementById("solrSearchBasic").center.value = "global"; } Global Resources Research Areas Programs Projects Regions Blogs Carnegie Politika China Financial Markets Diwan Sada Strategic Europe Podcasts Carnegie Connects Grand Tamasha The World Unpacked Interpreting India China in the World Europe Inside Out Carnegie Politika Podcast Publications Experts Events About Us Support Connect With Us Shortcuts Who We Are Board of Trustees Senior Leadership Our Story Staff Employment Diversity and Inclusion Junior Fellows Program Annual Report Centers Carnegie Europe Carnegie India Carnegie Russia Eurasia Carnegie China Malcolm H. Kerr Carnegie Middle East Center. Centers Carnegie Europe Carnegie India Carnegie Russia Eurasia Carnegie China Malcolm H. Kerr Carnegie Middle East Center. Research Areas Programs Projects Regions Blogs Podcasts. Publications. Experts. Events. Minh-Thu Pham. September 21, 2023. Q&A. Print Page. Sign up for a weekly newsletter from the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Sign up to receive emails from Carnegie! Check your email for details on your request. Minh-Thu Pham recently joined the Carnegie Endowment as a nonresident scholar. What was it like to work at the UN, based on your years in the Secretariat? It was both inspiring and humbling—inspiring because you get to help the community of 193 nations try to uphold the values they agreed to, and humbling because you (or at least your boss, the Secretary-General) have no power and very little influence. Everything you do is shaped by dynamics among member states, and the success of your efforts ultimately depends on whether they agree with one another or not. But when member states see it’s in their interest to cooperate, it can be pretty cool. Minh-Thu Pham. More >. @M2Pham. Still, my experience was somewhat unique. I arrived at the Executive Office of the Secretary-General in January 2005, during a period of deep crisis. Under questioning from the press, then secretary-general Kofi Annan said the Iraq war was not in accordance with the UN Charter and therefore illegal. Typically tensions arise at the UN as a result of disagreement among states, but here it was between the UN’s most powerful member state (the United States) and its top official who works at the behest of its members. That led to several U.S. congressional investigations into the UN, threats to withhold UN funding, and an independent inquiry , among other things. I was charged with staffing the UN’s response. That included several reforms, and in the end, we got agreement on the principle of Responsibility to Protect , important institutional changes on human rights and peace-building, and measures to improve management and operations. How relevant is the UN today, nearly eight decades after it was created? The UN’s relevance has been a question almost since its founding, but major powers ultimately decide that it’s to their benefit to try to work with it. Coordinating policy through an institution with global reach can be more efficient than working bilaterally. That said, right now trust between governments seems to be reaching a breaking point, and the legitimacy of states such as the United States that helped establish the world order is being seriously questioned. This is happening at just the moment when global cooperation is needed the most. Alternative clubs and pop-up alliances, while useful for certain purposes, also reflect the power transition we’re in. The expansion of the BRICS can bring those countries greater leverage at the UN, which is the only forum where the rest of the developing world is represented alongside the most powerful. At least in the medium term, I think governments will still go to the UN. If BRICS+ and others want to lead or influence the so-called Global South , they need to go where those countries are, and that’s the UN. What explains the UN’s failures? Is it capable of reform, at least at the margins? The UN has contributed to dramatic failures—often as a result of indecision, either when member states can’t agree, as in the war in Syria; when their agreement falls far short of what’s needed, as in Bosnia or Rwanda; or when they selectively apply, or don’t apply, international norms to suit their interests, as in Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Reform can mean different things—from ongoing debate about Security Council expansion to significant but less glamorous institutional changes to help the UN better deliver. Getting countries to agree on major changes depends on trust between member states and on whether there’s a broad coalition of committed states, backed by a solid political strategy and pressure from outside. Ultimately, reform is about changing how the UN works in order to improve it. What’s one aspect of the UN that’s flown under the radar that you wish more people knew about? I thought the relatively open process of creating the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) was itself a reform of UN decisionmaking and a story worth understanding. (That may be self-serving, since I was deeply involved.) But what happened wasn’t a rule change but rather a practice change. In the process of deciding on the goals, member states took into account ideas and evidence from governments (including local and regional bodies), UN agencies and programs, non-UN organizations, and new stakeholders that all helped to popularize the goals and whose expertise we need to implement them. It was “networked multilateralism” in practice, and I don’t think UN decisionmaking can go back to being closed to the people most affected. Yes, we’re off-track for achieving the goals —which were always ambitious—and the coronavirus pandemic set us further back. We’ll need the solidarity demonstrated in 2015—in the SDGs, the Paris climate agreement, and the financing for development agenda—and more to get us closer. What do you make of the often ambivalent relationship between the UN and the United States? It’s a tension built into the UN’s fabric. The United States helped create the UN and the existing world order, including the norms and principles that shape state behavior and the institutions that support them. Washington abides by those norms, at least most of the time, because it’s in its interest for others to see that it does and others should as well. Ultimately, the United States goes to the UN if doing so will accomplish its objectives. However, it should keep in mind that when it doesn’t go to the UN, there’s a trade-off. If the United States doesn’t go when it should, or doesn’t uphold its end of the bargain, it erodes its legitimacy as the underwriter of the global order. That’s one reason for the crisis we’re in. What will be your focus at Carnegie? I’m interested in how international organizations like the UN can better deliver, especially in response to profound change and compounding crises. How should these institutions adapt? The people and countries most impacted by the crisis have had very little say in what happens to them, but they will find ways to be heard. How will that play out, especially as authoritarianism is taking hold in many parts of the world, and people don’t trust their own governments to represent them or deliver for them? Read more of Carnegie’s UNGA coverage: The Massive Challenge Facing Leaders at the SDG Summit. Five Signs of Life for Global Cooperation. Neither Biden nor Netanyahu Could Afford a Bad Meeting. Unpacking Biden’s Remarks (video) End of document. Carnegie does not take institutional positions on public policy issues; the views represented herein are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of Carnegie, its staff, or its trustees. Related Topics. Americas. United States. Related analysis from Carnegie. In a Speech, Hezbollah’s Hassan Nasrallah Has Addressed the Killing of Hamas’s Saleh al-Arouri Maha Yahya. A Proustian Moment in Gaza Nathan J. Brown. Why a Lebanon War Is Not Imminent Yezid Sayigh. For Palestinians, the “Day After” Starts With a Plan for Ending Israel’s Occupation Zaha Hassan. Featured. The World Unpacked. Behind Closed Doors, Episode 3: Trouble in the Blue House July 31, 2023. Behind Closed Doors, Episode 2: Seeing the Monster July 27, 2023. Behind Closed Doors, Episode 1: If Men Were Angels, We Wouldn't Need Government July 18, 2023. The World Unpacked is a monthly foreign policy podcast that breaks down the hottest global issues of today with experts, journalists, and policymakers who can explain what is happening, why it matters, and where we go from here. Subscribe Today. Sign up to receive emails from Carnegie’s Global Order and Institutions Program! Check your email for details on your request. Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. 1779 Massachusetts Avenue NW Washington, DC 20036-2103. Phone: 202 483 7600 Fax: 202 483 1840. Carnegie Europe. Carnegie India. Carnegie Russia Eurasia. Carnegie China. Malcolm H. Kerr Carnegie Middle East Center. Contact Us. For Media. Financials. Employment. Privacy Policy. In a complex, changing, and increasingly contested world, the Carnegie Endowment generates strategic ideas and independent analysis, supports diplomacy, and trains the next generation of international scholar-practitioners to help countries and institutions take on the most difficult global problems and safeguard peace. Learn More. Twitter. Facebook. YouTube. Instagram. LinkedIn. © 2024 Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. All rights reserved. By using this website, you agree to our cookie policy . Please note... You are leaving the website for the Carnegie-Tsinghua Center for Global Policy and entering a website for another of Carnegie's global centers. 请注意... 你将离开清华—卡内基中心网站，进入卡内基其他全球中心的网站。